Well, hello and welcome to The Hallway. My name is Beryl Manjin and I am your host. I have a very special guest today that I'm going to introduce in a moment. The reason we have come together today is to talk about something that Aline and I referenced in our last two episodes, which is grief and gratitude. Grief and gratitude is a practice that I use as well as suggest to my clients, family, friends. strangers on the street, in order to navigate the complexity of being human. Grief and gratitude is a practice that allows us to not fall into toxic positivity, which can happen when we solely focus on gratitude, or fall into despair when we solely focus on grief. The reality of joy and pain is that they normally enter the room together. And so if we can sit in a practice of acknowledging grief and gratitude, In our daily, weekly life, it allows us to see the beautiful and the broken of the days that we have. So an example of that would be to just sit at some point during your day, whether it's in the morning or in the evening, on your commute, Anytime that you have five minutes to yourself and just think about the things that you're grateful for. I have gratitude for, as you notice what you have gratitude for, often grief will come up as well. So you acknowledge that grief and you give yourself a chance to, you know, Be present with the grief as well as with the gratitude. And if you're in a big season of grief, you can also acknowledge the grief and then they allow the gratitude to come up next to it. It's not complicated. It's very simple. You can do it while you're journaling. You can write it down. You can speak it aloud. You can hold it in your mind and in your heart. You can do it in whatever way works for you, but it's just the acknowledgement each day or each week of the gratitude. of what you are both grateful for and what you also have grief and pain around. So it is something that I do, I don't know, a couple times a week, sometimes a couple times a day. Um, and it is something that I've done a lot in the last decade or so, which has to do with my guest. My very special guest today is my mom, Ray Martin. You want to say hi mom? Hello. My mom is visiting us right now in St. Andrews, Scotland. She's been here almost a month. She has a couple of days to go. None of us are going to be okay when she leaves. It's been the sweetest visit. And we've eaten so well and our son has learned how to sew and make flan and banana bread and all kinds of wonderful crafts. Um, my mom will turn 80 in February. Um, she and my dad were married for 54 years, right? Um, my dad passed away in December of 2020. And my mom is a Bible study teacher and a grandmother and a gardener. Some would say a master gardener. My priest going up, growing up would say that she is one of the best Biblical scholars that he knows and she taught Bible study for about over 30 years. Is that right? That's right. My one of my dearest heart friends, sister friends for my whole life Cheryl gave me a card a long time ago that said she leaves beauty wherever she goes. And that's true of my mom. When I would come home, uh, tired and worn from college or travels or the last broken heart, there would be a beautiful bedroom and flowers next to my bed. So my mom is a talented and present, tenderhearted woman, and I'm grateful she's mine. Thank you, sweetie. You're welcome. So sweet. The reason mom's here today on this episode, it was just very serendipitous timing, is that she's walked through a lot of grief in the last decade, 11 years. So that's what we're here to talk about. And I do want to let those of you know, I've said before, I identify as a person who is a Christian. Um, and I get that come by, honestly, by my precious parents. So this episode is going to have probably quite a bit of references to God and that process and how we navigate the world from that perspective and from that foundation. If that's not congruent for you and you don't feel like you can listen to that, this may not be the episode for you. If that's not congruent for you and you feel like you can listen to it and take what is for you and leave what is not, then keep listening. But I always want to let you all know and be respectful of where you are in your own journey. So mom, do you want to, do you want me to set up the timeline just a little bit? Sure. That'd be great. Okay. So, In March of 2013, um, uh, my birthday is March 22nd and my dad got diagnosed with cancer for the first time on my birthday in 2013. Um, his first chemo treatment was Easter that year, which was the beginning of April. And right before I came home for that chemo treatment, granddaddy, whose mom's dad, went in the hospital. Um, And you can talk a little bit more, but I think it had to do with kidneys and heart. That's right. And, um, so, granddaddy was in the hospital and dad was going to start his first chemo treatment. So, we kids, I came home, I think my sister Annie came home, the other kids live in Jacksonville. And we kind of rallied around and supported mom as she stayed in the ho in the hospital with granddaddy and we stayed some in the hospital with granddaddy and took dad to chemo and somehow celebrated Easter. But that kicked off a decade of caregiving and grief for you. And you'd really been caregiving for granny and granddaddy before that. Do you want to start there? Sure. He had been diagnosed initially, my dad, your grandfather, in 2011. So I had come alongside them primarily because my mother was already dealing with Alzheimer's. And of course, granddaddy thought he could take care of her all by himself. Uh, so I, And encouraged him to begin to, um, you know, hire caregivers for her. I said, if you go first, she needs to be surrounded by people that she knows. So we had done that for two years, and in April of 2013, um, Daddy died. Yeah, it was that, the 30th of April. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. So, um, Then I, I had full responsibility for managing mother's caregivers and her home and her finances and all of it. Um, it's sort of hard to, to think back through it all. Um, my sisters and I, um, We're very much in agreement about how to care for her. She wanted to be in her home. Um, in 2017, your dad, so that had been going on now for a few years. So let's pause there for a second. Cause dad had chronic lymph, chronic lymphocytic leukemia the first time and that treatment went well. It was rough, but it was shorter, and it went fairly well. So, he was at the end of his career, uh, retired in 2017, and it just seemed really wise for us to downsize at that point. So, we did that in, in 2017. Um, a house came up down, uh, The street from where we had bought a smaller home and my mother bought it or we bought it for her and Moved her so she was only seven houses down from me so that I could manage her care that much better See her every day a couple of times a day. You're missing one piece Okay, can I back up just a little bit? So 2013 dad got diagnosed the first time you'd already been caring for green and granddaddy You Or helping for two years and then you stepped into managing that for granny and she was in her bigger home until 2017 right but in 2015 When I was engaged dad got diagnosed with cancer the second time. That's right And so when dad got diagnosed with cancer the second time You called me the day after my engagement party and said, I didn't want to tell you this until after your engagement party, but your dad's got an appointment tomorrow. There's something on his bladder. They're going to go in and do an exploratory surgery. And we don't know what it is, but we think it's cancer. Well, and it was, um, and that was on a Monday cause you called me on a Sunday, your brain, you remember all these details. But on that Monday you called me back and said it is cancer. And then on Friday we got the results and they said, put your affairs in order. Because it was really bad. Well, but they did the surgery, and he handled the results of that beautifully for the remaining five years of his life. Um, Jumping back to 20, uh, 17, he had been dealing with that, um, and um, We were in the smaller home, which made life a lot easier. Um, I missed my bigger garden, but I, um, But I installed, um, a smaller garden on the terrace, so that was a joy to me. But we moved, so here we were in a smaller home, moved mother down the street the next year in 2018, um. And at that point she had round the clock caregivers. Yes. A team, so to speak. Yes. And I was really caring for both of them until January of 20, when, um, your dad passed away. He was diagnosed with, uh, congestive heart failure and chronic kidney disease. So we went into the hospital. We were there about six weeks and basically they sent him home. And said he's got about two weeks to live so we got hospice and he lived another 10 months But that was in so if you think about that timeline January of 2020 he went in the hospital. So we'd had christmas at home right 2019 and everything seemed fine. Yes Yeah, and then it was just like beginning of january happened and he fell off a cliff right exactly So he was in the hospital for six weeks and all of us came back and forth And then he got sent home middle of february and as we all know March of 2020 The pandemic hit and you'd love for Scotland summer, right? But he wasn't supposed to be, he was supposed to have been given two weeks and he got home and the pandemic hit and you and Annie started changing up his nutrition and. Somehow his kidneys came back online and he lived another, like you said, another 10 months. Right. So, and we did, we left it August of 2020. We came and stayed with y'all for a month before we left. And then we moved in August of 2020 and dad died in December. And at that point, beginning back with my father's care in 2011, I had been a caregiver for almost 10 years, which is very opposed to my natural gifting or my, my talents. Um, but, um, You know, I have to say that God was faithful to meet me in all of those challenges. Um, I had to give up the Bible study that I had been leading for over 30 years, um, and just focus on care for my parents, my husband, and about that same time too, as you know, two of my children were also facing their own personal crises and so I was, um, drawn in a number of directions in attempting to, to care for, um, my family. So you were caring as a wife, as a daughter, and as a mother all at the same time. Yes. And really large quantities. They were not small needs. And never having been in that situation before. When you say, um, It's not your gifting. Can you tell them what that means? If you gave me what's called a spiritual gifts inventory, I would score zero in the area of mercy and compassion. It is just not the way God built me. I am a justice and um, righteousness kind of person. I, I just am. And so I had prayed for many, many years, Lord, help me to develop and grow in my ability to feel and give compassion and mercy. to others. I definitely felt that lack in my life. And so one of the things, frankly, that as I looked back on it all that I was so grateful for was that, um, I had the opportunity to grow in those areas because it certainly took compassion and tender mercy on a daily basis to deal with. All of that. So, um, So dad passed away in December of 2020, but granny was still living. Yes. And you were still navigating Her caregivers, her Alzheimer's, and then in August of 21, she died at the age of 101. So, there again, another beautiful, you mentioned the words beauty and broken in living together. Um, the beauty of having her. Uh, as a, as a mentor, a mother, a role model for a hundred and one. I mean, not that I was around all those years, but that she was that to many of us. So gratitude in that, um, did uncle buddy die between those? Yes. In the spring. So that was the other thing is you have two sisters and one brother and your brother died between dad and granddaddy. So it really, that is a lot in 11, 12, 13 years. It was a lot. And when it was over, I'll say it was over because they were gone and I was alone. And in my home where we had lived for three years at that point, three, yes, three years, um, me who have studied and love, you know, have experienced a lifetime of learning. I had rarely read a book in those many years. So in those years you were caregiving and you would have read a lot before that. Yes. You just didn't have space. So now the house was quiet. There weren't daily chores to be done. I had. Um, time to sit and reflect and read and really for the first almost year, um, I really sat in my chair in the garden room and stared out the window. That is about the way I can describe myself for the first year after your father died. I didn't have any motivation. Me, who is a very goal oriented, independent, accomplished, at least, always striving to have something valuable in my daily life. There weren't chores to be done other than, you know, keep up your laundry, feed yourself. But I I just sat and gave myself permission to grieve. I had a friend who had really pushed through, said, Oh, um, I've just got to keep going. That's the way I can get through this. And, you know, five years past her husband's death, she was really feeling the emotional effects. Still after five years of the grief in her life, the pain, the loss, and I didn't want to do that. I wanted to know how to grieve in a way that was appropriate and it didn't seem to have a time frame, so I just sat, stared out the window, I took my daily walks, I prayed, I read, and I I even joined a grief group because I thought there are people who know more about this, have experienced it much more deeply than I have. So what does God have for me in the middle of this? I'm always looking for, what is there for me to learn through this? So it was a, it was, and it just took time. That's all I can say. I couldn't rush the process. I had to sit and, and You use the phrase, do the work, do the grief work. And I didn't know what that was, except just to be where I was, not to hurry, and not to think that I needed to be any place but right where I was. And for you, part of what you're noting is That too is hard for you to give yourself permission to do that. Absolutely. But you had seen the example of your friend who didn't. Right. And you had thought, this is the time when I learn how to do this. I wanted to remember. I wanted to remember all the beauty. I wanted to let go of the pain. Hold on to the precious moments. Even though they were often filled with pain. Because there is beauty in every bit of it. And I wanted to come away with, I just wanted to come away with growth, not bitterness. I wanted to come away with beauty. I don't know how or any other way to say it, but I just needed to be where I was. One of the hardest things was after about 18 months, I was invited to come visit a friend in Virginia. And I realized that I was fearful of taking a trip by myself. Driving, staying in a motel. So one of the, I knew I wanted to though, and that it would be a positive thing to do. I was ready to move on a bit. So I called friends and said, May I spend the night with you? I'm going to be coming through town. And so I arranged that all but one night of the trip, Uh, I was staying with friends, and that made it just joyful, and they welcomed me and made precious, you know, dinners and places for me. So, what could have been very, very hard and, and, um, Very difficult. It turned into beauty. And it could have been lonely. It was lonely, and yet I can remember driving through the hillside in Virginia on the way to Pennsylvania, the furthest north that I went on the trip, and looking at the beauty around me, the woods, the mountains, the sun. Um, Lighting up the hills and thinking, I get to see this today. I get to be here and, um, I was just so joyful all of a sudden. So, I guess moments like that let you know that you are moving through the grief in a way that is healthy, and your heart is somehow ready to embrace beauty and joy again. It's not, um, I guess you, in a way, have to give yourself permission to be joyful again. Um, because you don't have to carry the pain and the grief forever. You do hope that you will move through it in a way that is appropriate. And at the right time, enter into A joyful, um, free, a freedom that bring, that is, that is joyful and, um, I don't know how else to say it, it's just free and grateful. So that's where I found myself about two years, between 18 months and two years after all of those deaths. And one of the things we talked about, either yesterday or the day before, was that, that idea of grief and gratitude had not been something you had thought about before, that those two things could be together. Well, you taught me that, because you have mentioned it so often in, um, and I guess during those those years, that they could live together. Um, that you didn't have to be, you know, Um, just totally weighted down by the grief continually. That there could be moments, even in the hardest places, where there were things to be grateful for. You use the term so often, instead of saying but, you say and, and to me that's, it was very instructive. Because when you say grief, When you're saying, but I was, I was sad, but at the same time joyful, it almost sounds like in spite of. But when you say and, it means in addition to. Both together and they're not exclusive of one another. So I like that grief and gratitude. One of the things you said too that was so simple to me, um, my friend, one of my, another one of my dear sister friends, Shannon, the first time she came to y'all's new house, um, cause y'all lived in my childhood home from the age I was three until I was 40. So it was a big move. But you've downsized a bit and Shannon, the first time she came to your new house said it's like your mom just took her old house and shrunk it down and put it in her new house because they do look so similar. Um, where was I going with that? Oh goodness. About the beauty. Oh, so, um, In the new house, one of the things that you did though, that's a bit different than the old house was you, this kind of weird Florida room that was on the back of the house that was not very attractive. You figured out how to open up the back of the house and add the Florida room on as a, as a sunroom, uh, take the flooring out, out there, put in windows instead of screen. And really it became another room as opposed to weird, screened in area. But in that room, you have the gorgeous Mambo's old, gorgeous, um, couch and some of your favorite things and a beautiful server at the end. But one of the things you have is a chair that's where you read and where you really read your Bible a lot. And I think one of the things you had said to me is during that early time when you would sit there is how much gratitude you had for that room and that chair. Absolutely. I mean, it was like a nest. Um, It was, it was very comforting. And just to be able to be there, just sit and be there with my feet up, look out the window, stare at the pine trees, um, enjoy the sunlight coming in. I was so grateful for that room and that chair and the beauty that surrounded me, um, even in the midst of the loss and the pain and the pain. Thinking about your dad not being there and after 54 years, you're pretty accustomed to somebody being there. Yeah That one of the joys for me too is my morning walk, because after I spend time in God's Word, and writing a little bit, then I, it's not hard for me to put on my walking clothes and get out the door after I don't know how many years of doing it on a daily basis. I look forward to that. It's like the next thing. It's the next step that I take to, Care, really care for myself, and I jokingly say, if I take care of myself as best I can, it was going to keep you all from taking care of me so soon. Well but to pause there for a minute, that's true, and I hear that. I think in your experience of being a caregiver for so long, probably trying to keep some of that from your children. But the other thing is, is that it also allows you to play and be with. Your grandkids. I mean, you have grandkids that span from, my son just turned seven, he's the youngest, and Charles and Christy's oldest is the oldest, and he's, oh good lord, Charlie, don't kill me, 25? I've lost count too, honey. Oh good lord. I was 18. What's 46 minus 18? 28? Okay, so I think he's 28. That cannot be right. Charlie, you're going to have to let us know what it is. We'll look it up in a minute, but he's older. He's married. So you have a large swath of ages in your grandchildren. And so it allows you when you're home, like I'll call you when you're taking John T and Sarah to dinner, or you're going doing something with Amy, or you went out on Charlie's a fishing guide. You went on the boat with Charlie or Reeves is bringing his dog over or Johnson's coming by while he's in town. And then when you're here, You run circles around us So I think there's a gift in that too of it allows you to experience life in an age where some people are not able To do that. Absolutely. And there we get again. We get back to gratitude. I just am so so grateful for my health The fact that I can get out the door every morning walk for 45 minutes in my neighborhood be in nature And of course that for me is life giving, uh, just to walk through, uh, pray and listen for, um, for what the Spirit would have to say to me in that day. And I can come back with a full heart and, and pouring, pouring, having poured out my grief, my sorrow, my questions, uh, in prayer. And, um, I have often said by the time I have spent the time with God in His Word and in prayer, have done my walking, I really think that I have accomplished the most important part of my day. And whatever else God brings to me in that day, I am ready in the best way that I know how mentally, physically, spiritually to receive. Whatever becomes in that day. One of the things I want to note, we're not going to go down this road, but I just want to note it, is when we've talked about in the last couple episodes about how to care for yourself in the hallway. One, not one of, there are a number of ways that you've noted that you won't do that. And I just want to point them out plus some that I know that they wouldn't know. But you've just mentioned movement and for you, walking has been such a beautiful way to do that. And you have done it for, I mean, for as long as I can remember. And you also mentioned nature and the grounding of being in creation and the noises. The area that you live in too has a lot of woodland. So when you walk, you see squirrels and you hear birds and the wind coming through the trees and there's water. And so there's nature and there's movement. And the other thing that you do that they would not know, is you've been taking supplements. Gosh, since you were, before you were born, right? So let's go with 50 years. Okay. And so you have paid attention to supplementation throughout your life and have really tried to continue to give your body supplements. Both internally through supplementation and whole food as well as through movement what she needs To be able to age well, so I don't want to go down that road But I just want to note if you want to know why I think it works. She's sitting across the table from me One of the things that I think came online too, so you've noted like, you sat, rested, read, grieved, gave yourself to that process for 18 months to two years, and then when you started kind of venturing out, it, it's, I think it's well and good that it seems to me one of the first things you did was get into community. Somebody invited you and you thought, well, then I'm going to go see some other friends, too. Um, you've stayed active with your family. You've come to visit us so many times. You stay active with your family back home. And then you, you know, got into your friend community. And the other thing that I think came online from my perspective is your creativity continued to come back. Well, yes, and I was going to mention that, um, I found that I was lonely. As I spent that much time by myself, and I am an introvert, so it's easy for me to be alone. But I did begin to experience loneliness and value my friends and my family even more. And trying to be intentional about seeing them and making dates with them. And it's hard to, it's hard with people. young people who have such busy lives and often, you know, the older people do feel alone. And, um, so it has to work both ways. I mean, I work very hard to try to make, make dates with them. And sometime I'm disappointed that they're not available, but they do have busy lives talking about the creativity. Um, you know, me very well, and you know that I tend toward perfectionism in the things that I attempt and yet I've been, I was asking myself as now I have a lot of free time after all of these people were gone from my life. Okay, how am I going to finish well? How are these latter, latter years, however many I have, how am I going to, um, use them? Uh, live in the midst of these latter years most healthfully, productively, creatively, and beautifully. So, um, on my walks, I would see flowers and animals, trees, and I thought, aha, I will take pictures as I, on my walks. And as you remember, last Christmas, when I was here, I was talking to Michael about rhyming words. And Michael is our son. He enjoyed that. And so I thought, well. I will write poems about what I see on my daily walks and the pictures that I take. Well, I've never studied poetry. I don't know anything about poetry, but I can rhyme words. Right. So I decided I would do that. And so coming to see him eight months later, I brought a book that I had put together online. And that was a challenge in itself to do the all the clicking to make the pictures and the poems come together on the same page. But I came with the Book of Poetry and Pictures for Michael, um, about 50 of them. And so And when you say book, just because people have not seen it, it is a, what does it say on the front cover? It says Morning Walks with Nona. And each page has a different picture and poem from your walks. And you see things like herons. I think you've seen a crocodile, alligator, deer, ducks. So it's like all different things that you see on your walks and you made a poem for each one and it's a hardback book that you made on Shutterfly and had them print. That's right. And Sarah helped you? She edited. Okay. So Sarah's your granddaughter in law and um, my friend Cheryl helped as well. Yes. And so you brought him a book. Yes. We sit and read, and of course he's such a good reader that he reads, and we laugh. So I hope it'll be a treasure for him. I mean, he's only seven, so I hope he'll enjoy it for many years to come. And it was certainly fun for me, and challenging at the same time, you know, and for other people. Put myself out there and, and other people to read what I have written, um, when I am certainly not a poet. But He doesn't know it. And what you're saying too is that you set aside perfectionism and allowed it to be what it was. Absolutely. Yes. If I was going to do it and enjoy it and feel that it was, I had freedom in it, freedom to give, um, just because I love him and want to stay connected. It's not easy to stay connected with a seven year old who lives on the other side of the world. So, um, I said in the little letter I wrote at the beginning, perhaps when you read these poems and look at the pictures, you'll think of your Nona who lives on the other side of the pond and know how much she loves you. And you also have done other things when you're talking about how you have plugged back in. You do the garden at church. You have done, you know, other people's gardens. You continue to help us all with decorating our houses, because I didn't mention that, but you were also an interior decorator forever. So you've plugged back in to all these giftings and these loves that you have. Well, yes, beauty is so important to be surrounded by it for me. I'm so visual. And, um, so I do enjoy it. It's very life giving for me to create beauty, and You can only do that so much in your house. You get it to the place that you want it. So then you take your creativity out into the garden. And um, and there's always things to, there are always things to do in the garden. I want to go back for a second to when you were in, maybe in all the stages, as you've been in all different parts of your grief. Um, Um, one of the things we talked about the other day that I told you I was going to ask you was, and I don't know the answer to this yet, just so you all know, I just told her I was going to ask her so she could think about it. We as your kids, it's a interesting combination of things being a daughter or a son and losing a parent and walking alongside your parent and you still being our mom. Is, are there ways though that we could have walked alongside you? better than we did? And that might not be all of us. Maybe some of us did it and some of us didn't. I wouldn't say better than. Um, I felt supported. You know, we were all grieving. Uh, each of you were grieving the loss of your father. And so to be able to share that, not dance around it, not ignore it, um, You know, not talk with each other with a stiff upper lip kind of attitude, but to genuinely be able to share freely. Um, and, You know, you are good about asking questions. So, to, to be asked, Mom, how are you feeling today? Are you missing Dad? You know, yes, it would open up the floodgates, and the tears would come, and again. But, um, sharing that grief with each of you was beautiful in itself. To, um, share the pain, knowing that it was shared. And you had your own way of grieving and missing, while I had mine. Somehow, the shared grief was healing in itself. So I don't think that I missed, even though you were miles away, I don't think I missed um, anything. By, um. you know, are not being together. And of course, your brother and your sisters were present physically. Um, perhaps for someone who is more extroverted than I am, they would have needed more individual support from friends and family. But for me, the quiet, the solitude, the solitude. Um, my chair in the garden room and the beauty of the woods surrounding me was healing. I, I don't I know how to describe it any better than that. Um, I'm gra I'm grateful. I'm grateful for the time. I'm grateful for, uh, the solitude. I'm grateful for each of you, and I'm joyful at this place. I'm glad to be where I am today. And I have a different life, um, but it's, it's full, and I still am looking for places to serve, and with the, you know, perhaps the reduced energy than I used to have, but there's so much beauty in that. I think I'll, I do want to say this. I think that as I've heard you talk, as we, as I presented this idea, I was like, mom, I need to do this grief and gratitude episode and Eileen and I didn't get to finish it before she left. So I was just going to do it on my own and then asked you, you know, it feels like good timing because of all that you've walked through for you to do this. And as we talked about it and we prepared and. Um, the thing that came up for me is I think being a child of a parent who is as capable and strong and, you know, I've, I've made, I didn't make this joke earlier, but I've made the joke consistently throughout my life that you make Martha Stewart look a little lazy and a little less talented. Sorry Martha. And I don't think she'll ever hear this, but, um, So I think as your child, I checked on you, but I think it's a, it's a hard thing to balance because I still need my mom. And also you are a human person who lost your best friend, your partner, your husband, your mom, your brother, your dad. And so I think there are times when I kind of leaned on you being superhuman. Um, and as I look back on it now, there are times I wish I had done that a little differently. Well, I don't think I ever quit being mom throughout all of that. I didn't want to be super mom. I wanted to be real mom. I wanted to, you know, I wanted to, as I said, be where I was and if you were observing that, I wanted you to, to grow through it with me. Uh, you know, if I could do it well in a way that, um, was healthy, um, there again as a mom, I guess you want to set an example in your life for your children. Um, but I didn't, I didn't feel any need to, to be Supermom. And, and yet at the same time, if you called with your own needs, I wanted to be there for you. So, I think as you have adult children, um, there does become, there does come a mutuality about it. That, um, I mean, I have great respect for you, where you're coming from, and, um, All the things that you understand that I don't, and so I am, I'm more than ready to learn, uh, in the things that you have, from the things that you have to share with me, and to share with you where I am, so. I'm very, very blessed in my adult children and how mature and wise my children are, so I'm ready to learn and grow, um, by what each one of you have to bring to me. And my goodness, the whole point that we're talking about grief and gratitude is because you help me to understand that those two could live. Peacefully and healthfully together. Giving me permission to be. was during that season that I, I don't know why you don't anticipate it. I mean, you know those times may come, but when they're there, certainly there's no way to prepare for it. You just have to be in the middle of it. Um, grow because of the experiences that you're having and hopefully grow not better, but better through the experiences. I don't know how to tie this up well, but I'm going to say this. Um, the other day we'd had a really lovely day. Um, it was Monday, it was Michael's birthday, and we'd kind of celebrated over the weekend. He'd already had a party earlier in the summer, and it was just a sweet day. It was church, and we went to a swimming pool, and we had breakfast for dinner, and He opened presents and it was just a sweet day and mom taught me how to crochet which I am a slow learner But I'm really enjoying it. She's really good and You and I were sitting on the couch. We put Michael to bed Anthony was doing something and I turned to you and said what I probably have said Hundreds of times in my life, or almost said, I stopped myself when what I was going to turn to you and say was, we need to call dad and tell him how the day went, because that's often what we would do. Dad worked. Until he was 80. Maybe 81. 85. He worked a long time. He retired three times. He did. I went back to work. Well the first time he retired though he went back to work because you told him that if he didn't you were gonna lose your mind. So dad worked a long time so there would be times you would come visit and help me with my house or my garden or just be with me and dad wouldn't be with us. And at the, in the evening we would sit down, we would call dad and he would ask all the questions about the day and want to hear everything. And so that grief that you have, that missing that you have in that moment is both, I almost said it because it was just the norm of our life. And in that moment though, you realize the grief of he's not here and the gratitude of, I had a dad that we always called and told him about the day. And then not five minutes later, Annie, one of your other children, who currently lives in Florence, Italy, but for the last month has been in Saragossa, Spain, and for the weekend was in Madrid, messaged us a picture of a glass of scotch, dad's favorite scotch, and said the same thing, that she'd had this marvelous day in Madrid, riding around on the back of a BMW motorbike and seeing old friends. And, She said, I just wish I could call dad and tell him how the day went. And what is more, what is to be celebrated and how could you be more grateful for having a dad that you felt that close to and that was intimately interested in every detail of your life. So as much as we miss him and How glorious to, to have had him and, and all the things we learned from him, all the things that he taught us, all the care that he gave us, um, I couldn't be more grateful. And I'm glad that he was your dad. Me too. I'm also glad you're my mom. Thanks. Um, is there anything you want to share before we finish up? I am grateful for today, and I am hopeful and grateful for tomorrow. I'm looking forward to the last, hopefully, decade or more. I'm going for at least two, but sure. That I have ahead of me. And just, um, in each day, um, being right where I am. and being grateful. Thanks for doing this with me. Oh, my pleasure. Thank you all for listening. Um, if you have any questions, the great thing about a podcast is I can do it internationally. Mom can always come back. So if you have any questions and you want us to have our next conversation, just let us know and I will see you next time. Thank you.