Hello. Hello. Welcome to the hallway. We are so glad you are all with us today. I am Beryl and Manjin. I am Aline White. And we are here today because I have the immense pleasure of getting to interview my friend Aline, who is also my co host on this podcast. So Aline and I have been friends now for over a year. A little over a year. Or are we going on two? Okay. So time passes quickly. When you're in the hallway. Yeah. Time does. Well, sometimes it passes very slowly. Indeed. Yes. That's true. But we've been friends for a while. Yes. We both live here in St. Andrews, Scotland. Um, Aline is a deep souled woman. She is kind and brave, funny and wise, a faithful sojourner, and I'm very grateful that you're my friend. I'm so grateful you're mine. No. So nice. So you are married to Chris who just finished his PhD, which you will get to, but he just graduated. Yesterday? Uh, yeah, two days ago. Two days ago. So congratulations to Chris, a really big deal. Yeah. Um, you all have two children and you have worked in the nonprofit world. You've also pastored a church, done a couple other things. You are currently a coach. Okay. So can you tell us a little bit about that history? Kind of how you got from. Growing up in California to being a pretty full grown woman. Fairly, not quite. Sometimes I'm not so sure about myself, so. I don't want to put that on anybody else. Full grown woman in St. Andrews, Scotland with a husband and two kiddos. Yeah. Can you kind of catch us up how you got from there to here? Yeah, of course. Um, do it very briefly. Um, if I can. Uh, yep, born and raised in California. Um. Where in California? California. a small town called Ramona. Uh, so it was in California, but not like of California, if you know what I mean, because it was a small town. It was more like, you know, Nebraska or something. Um, and then of course, you know, wanted to get out of there as soon as I could. I think I probably spent, to be honest, most of my childhood dissociated. Now looking back, fun times and went off to Um, halfway through college dropped out so that I could go to a Christian leadership school, college, um, which sent me on a really interesting journey of learning of lifelong learning. And you mentioned this, um, Last podcast, you know, I do have it in me to have lifelong learning. And I think some of my learning journey, you know, with school has influenced that where, um, I sort of absorbed a lot of, I guess, what not to do and learning about myself, um, organizations, people, and found myself really fascinated with that dynamic in particular, um, ended up working in HR a bit. Ended up working also as a legal assistant at a firm for a bit, a good amount of time, and then a lot of ministry. Can I pause you for a second? Yes. Even when you were at the law firm though, if I remember you worked with a lot of their nonprofit stuff. It did. Yeah. So you were kind of bending that way already. That's right. Yeah. Very interested. Always very interested in like sort of how does this take and legally how does it form and that kind of thing. Um, all the pro bono stuff and that, um, so that was a power, a part of it, the pieces for me. Um, and then a really, uh, had a lot of. Experience working in ministry in some context, even when I, my jobs, you know, my paid jobs were outside of that, um, finding myself, whether through church organizations or otherwise, um, just connecting with people through ministry and supporting people in that way. And then also. Uh, in full time ministry as well, where we were paid and, and pastoring, um, and I helped to form a nonprofit for women in ministry, um, which was lovely and remains to be, um, and so lots of experience there. Um, and I think that brought me to a place of now, uh, where I got into coaching, um, and how that happened, if you'd like me to. Yeah, let me pause you for just a second. So two things that I want to point out that you said one, you and Chris. It's pastor to church in Washington state. And that was between your two kids. Jordi was born there. Your eldest, my oldest. Yeah. And then, uh, Ruthie was born, uh, back down in Los Angeles after y'all finished and came back down. Yeah. And then also helping one of who is, I think your dear friends to start a non nonprofit for women. What does she focus on? Um, um, she supports women. Who are just in other areas of leadership, women that are carrying a lot on their shoulders. Um, and just having this heart. So a lot of the things that you're describing about how you want a place for women to come, because let's face it, any woman carries a lot on her shoulders. Amen. You know, so. But this was in, like, particularly geared to those who it's like, I need, I am busy. I need a day where I can come and have a sort of a retreat for my, Mind and soul and spirit and body and just be replenished. Um, this woman that I, my dear friend, um, that I worked with, she founded it and still has iterations of the same thing going. Um, but has we worked together to build that up? I worked for her and, um, it's just such a beautiful thing to watch. Um, These, these women come and, and just be replenished and be supported and strengthened and the vulnerability that took place in those spaces, uh, because it was so safe. It was incredible to watch and has stuck with me. So if you look at your history, cause we're going to talk about coaching and where you are now, if you look at your history, there's been this weaving of walking alongside people in leadership, being in leadership yourself. And a lot of times when you talk about those spaces that people have probably heard it already in what you've said, you talk a lot about vulnerability. I do. Yeah. Yeah. And. And so as y'all moved to Scotland, you want to talk a little bit, we talked a little bit about it last time, but why y'all moved to Scotland, how long you've been here? Of course. Um, yep. We, um, my husband and I were in full time ministry, um, when that came to a close, it's different podcast for a different time. Uh, uh, we were in a bit of transition, kind of wondering about what was next and, um, Um, through, you know, very long story short, we were really led and directed to come here, um, to apply for my husband to apply to St. Andrews for his PhD. Um, and it happened much to our surprise. We were kind of shocked. And um, Yeah. Never forget. I was actually pregnant with Ruthie, uh, sitting in a taco shop because obviously that's what you do when you're pregnant and when you're not pregnant because tacos are tacos are best, right? They are life. Um, and looking at this neon sign and we were in LA and so I'm looking at this like neon open sign, just staring at it. It's imprinted into my mind because My husband said, well, you know, in theory, there's a program in Scotland and, you know, we don't have to do that one, but it's just something kind of like that. And in my mind, I just knew, and I looked out the window and I looked at him, I'm like, we're, we're moving to Scotland. Aren't we? And he's like, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's not even the thing, you know? Um, and I'm like, no, It's just one of those things those moments where you're like, I know what's happening. We're doing it. So That was us we did sure enough everything happened in here we are four years later. How old was Ruthie when you moved? 10 months. So you moved in the middle of a global pandemic with a 10 month old and how old was Geordie? Three and a half. Hmm. A lot. Yeah. But y'all have been here four years, same as us and Chris just finished with his doctorate. And we're going to talk about that in a little bit. So we'll pause there. So as you've been over here, you worked alongside a church here and really started being drawn to coaching that happened for both of us. And tell us a little bit about where you are with that and how that's growing and blooming for you. Yeah. Thanks. Um, I think, I think it's always been, there has always been such a, me, you talk about loves, you know, in your, when we're, when you're episode, we were talking about kind of your loves and mine. I've always just loved people. I've always loved thinking about their story, thinking about what makes them, them supporting them in that, you know, cheering them on, encouraging them in that. And. And also encouraging them to continue, you know, keep going in, in what they are. And um, I think as I've also walked through quite a bit of life now have had the capacity to encourage them in like, you know, Hey, you're strong and you can get through this sort of thing. I'm sitting beside people in their pain. You share this, you've mentioned the same thing. Um, Um, and I think that I've just found that I love it. Um, when I am doing something like that, you know, I have done a lot of it in ministry. Um, it is, I know that that's what I'm supposed to be doing. Um, coaching was kind of introduced to me through some friends, you included, um, kind of the concept of it. And I think. that I had probably put this concept on the shelf for a really long time thinking maybe someday and it was just sort of like taking off the shelf. Like why not this day, you know, and you know, more or less started taking steps toward that, toward certification, practicing coaching. Um, and as I do this and as I have gone through and I, I did it scared, I did it uncertain and I did it. Sort of needing validation as well, like through like, should I be doing this sort of thing? And getting ended up getting quite a bit of validation, ended up getting lots of. Great feedback. And I found that even that I was still uncertain and needed certainty. And I have felt like that certainty now comes from this expression of this realization of me actually being me. It's so simple. It's sometimes you question like, should I be getting, should I be doing this as a, as an actual vocation? Because it's so easy for me because I get actually life from it because it just feels wonderful to do. It almost feels like I shouldn't, uh, it should be my hobby or something. But when those two things line up, it's like, Oh no, this actually can be a beautiful thing. Um, I shared this with someone, how I feel about coaching, I think is a little bit, you mentioned chariots of fire being filmed here, um, in St. Andrews on West Sands. In the movie, um, there's this line, he says, He goes, you know, I, I know God's called me to be a missionary, um, but when I run, I feel his pleasure. Mm-Hmm. And that is what I feel when I do what I do. Mm-Hmm. and I, I dunno how else to word that, you know? Um, but that's, yeah. When I was in grad school, you start seeing clients after you. You know, over here, a lot of people don't know this, but over here, most doctorates are research doctorates in the UK where both of our husbands research, research, right, right, research, right, research, right. But there are no taught classes. Typically, my doctorate was all taught classes. And then you have a year to research and write your dissertation. So for me, yeah, Um, once we moved into seeing clients, we'd done like two or three years of classes. It's a little fuzzy at this point. And you start seeing, um, clients in like the university place where they know you're in school, et cetera. But after about a year of that, I remember a session, I remember what I was wearing. I was wearing black trousers and a red top, which I never wear red anymore. So that's super funny. And I remember sitting there and I was in the flow of a session, which has been like the first time I'd experienced that. And afterwards I said to, um, my supervisor, I had two women supervisors who are both phenomenal humans and I'm very grateful for them. I said to her, I was like, I think for the first time, like my cells were doing what they were made to do. And I felt it. Yes. And that is a crazy thing. It's sort of, um, like this space where like, I guess a little bit also heaven meets earth sort of thing, you know? Um, Yeah, it's a moment that flow and we'll probably end up talking about flow. It's something I talk about a lot with my clients, but that flow of like, Oh, Oh, that's what it is. Yeah. So you get into that when you are with clients. Yeah. When I'm, when I'm seeing them, when I'm seeing them discover more about them, Um, I don't know. It's just like, I'm just sitting there beholding the magic happen, you know, it's happening with them. I'm just like marveling at it, you know? Um, yeah, maybe I ask a question or maybe I suggest they turn this way or that way, but they're the athlete, you know, the one doing it and, uh, it's fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. So as you have been seeing people, um, I'm going to get you to talk about something a little bit that we haven't talked about. So you are starting to move into developing your own coaching practice. You want to just talk just for like a minute or two about what it's going to be called and why. Okay. Um, I was looking for a name and I was like, I don't want to name it my name if I can, Anyway, we live in a lovely cottage here, um, in St. Andrews, in the Scottish countryside. And, um, it's a named house, which is like, so English, British. It's Scottish, but I never anticipated that we would live in a named house. Um, the, the name of the house is called archways cottage. And, um, it's, it's actually, it has quite a few arches, like the windows are arched, um, in the front and it's a really beautiful space and, um, used to be an old, um, horse stable, I think has converted out of that. And it's just, it's very charming. Um, and I was thinking about it. I think it was, I was chatting with my husband about, This thing, but since moving into archways cottage, you know, of course me being super learner researcher, I don't know, just wondering deep thinker person. I was like, what is it? Let me think about an arch. I'd like to think about that con architectural construct, you know? And so I, I did a lot of researching on it. I did a lot of like looking into like, huh, what does that mean? Um, and found it so interesting. And so. Um, and I'll, I'll explain what that means in a moment, but just figuring out a name. My husband goes, well, what about archways? And I was like, I hated him at that moment. Cause I didn't want him to come up with the name, but I knew I was like, you just came up with it. That is too good. Okay. That's bad. All of the symbolism is there because what an archway is, um, Um, is it's an architectural construct that is designed to evenly distribute the weight that is held above it. Um, it's often found at doorways, hallways, which Beryl is like, um, hello, hallways. Um, also bridges, you know, crossing over, going through things like this. Um, It is often when you look at ruins, which we have a lot of those out here, which are so, so, you know, fortunate to see these awesome architectural ruin wonders. What you will often see quite a few archways still standing with the rest crumpled behind it because it's very strong, sustainable force. And for me, Sort of coaching and what I have understood in my experience about organizations, about leadership, about people in roles, um, that are supporting others is, um, that they need to seek out that sustainability. They need to seek out the evenly distributed. Weight. I think this goes for any individual attempting to build anything right and It just is such a picture of what I think that I see as a great value to people Yeah. And how you're gifted to walk alongside them. It really represents the feedback you, when you were talking about validation, a lot of that's come through feedback. And so what you know about yourself and how you've worked historically is that this is also something that you help people do. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So it kind of works just all the way around. Yeah. And the fact that it works well with a hallway just really worked for us. We're like, Hey, cause we'd already named the podcast at that point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, um, I was looking into it architecturally. Um, actually an arched hallway. Um, the arches are designed to create a higher ceiling actually vault the ceiling up. So, you know, do with that analogy what you will. The other thing I think is beautiful is, um, is it, um, Van Gogh? Sorry. No, it's not Van Gogh. It is. Who's the, You gotta, I, I, I shoot, I have it like describe it to me. It's, um, da Vinci da Vinci. Okay. You can edit all of that stuttering out. Um, Leonardo da Vinci, uh, you know, he's an engineer. He was an engineer and, um, an artist. He describes. An arch as two weaknesses coming together to form a strength and I was just like, wow, that's moving. You're going to put that quote on your website, right? It's on there. Girl. I'm so glad. I like the way you think though. Yeah. Um, but yes. Um, so that's the, that's the coaching stuff. So now that you are getting settled in coaching and Chris has graduated and we have decided to do a podcast about, so we had gotten together to film this and weren't able to, or to record this and weren't able to do it because two days earlier, that was last week, two days you found out that you have to leave the country in a month. Correct. So. And don't know where we're going. Right. So. So the way that it works over here is once a student, what we would say in the States is defends their dissertation. What they say over here is Vivas. And then they graduate, they have a certain amount of time until they have to leave. If you don't have a job lined up and your visa is able to be moved over to like a working visa. So this happens for a lot of people. This is not rare. It's pretty crazily normal. And so. Once Chris had Viva'd, then y'all found out you had to be out of the country two months later. Yeah. Three months later, something like that. And so we had like our whole schedule to record all of these things. And now we're going to be an international podcast. So there's like, I I've said this before, but Our podcast is like a very small grain of sand compared to the beach that y'all are navigating. But it's an example of all the little details you've got to figure out how to navigate. So now we're recording a podcast about the hallway while even more in the hallway than we thought we were before. Yeah. How are you doing? What do you want to talk about? with that? Because part of what you've said is we don't know where we're going and you'll have two littles. Yeah, yeah. Yes, it is super scary. Um, it is absolutely liminal as you've talked about the liminal space, the things that you've described. I mean, you and I have talked about this as friends quite a bit because kind of being here. Is a liminal space in itself, not quite knowing you don't have an assurance, um, of staying, but getting a very short timeline and then having zero landing space is like about as liminal as it gets, you know? Um, and the funny thing is, uh, yeah, so I feel very scared. I feel also Um, moments of peace, uh, because we have been in many hallway moments before, um, and the way, you know, I was chatting with my husband about this. We feel like these moments before this have been, you know, mountain, maybe rock climbing training and things like this and different. Rocks, faces of rocks that you climb very scary. You know, you need to give it all you got, you get through and you're like, wow, that was wild. Um, this feels like we're, uh, free soloing like zero tethers, you know, um, you know, El Capitan and like, if I get in my head at all, like I might die. Um, and so it's the real deal, you know, and. Um, the comfort I get out of this and I can, I'll, I'll bring God into it as well because there's a lot of God in it that I, I need to get through this time. Um, but the comfort I get out of just that even before that is kind of the muscle memory. If you're going with the rock climbing analogy of when a person's free soloing, they got to get internal. Um, they cannot think about that, that drop, you know, they've got to get right in front of them and they've got to get, look at their own fingertips and that's it, you know, um, and that's what is helping me right now. I would say, uh, staying in the moment, looking only one just to the tip of my toes. That's it. Um, staying very focused on that. And, you know, we've been celebrating some things like for my husband, there's also the feelings of wanting to emotionally process, leaving a place to grieve properly to, to be grateful properly. Um, and feeling all those things in the same space is a lot. Um, so yeah, I'm doing, I am, I am doing and I'm okay. I think, um, the God piece is just what Um, when I get internal, when I get, and I look at my own fingertips and when I'm in the place where I'm, I've got nothing else that will sustain me and no mooring, really no tether at that, at that point, I, I find that mooring in God and that's where I'm drawn is to my faith. Um, and I think that the one thing, the one sort of thought notion I'm getting from God in the moment is just to keep going, keep walking forward. And if we think about that in the context of a hallway, it's wild because that's me walking down the hallway, all the doors are shut. I'm not, you know, and it's just. Walking forward into that long hallway, who knows when it ends, who knows if it does consistently knocking on doors. That's right. Yeah. And so it's the experience of, Oh, that door thought it was opening that door closed. We went in that door for a minute. We thought that might, Nope, that one closed too. So I think you brought up something really interesting is that, you know, when we came, we both had very, In our relationships and our faith in our relationship with God, we both in our marriages had very specific, like you're supposed to go to Scotland and there's a lot of parallels in those stories. But when we knew we were coming to Scotland, it's a hallway like anyone that goes to school. Whether you're leaving home for the first time, going to university for the first time, or you're going back to school for some sort of an advanced degree, it, it, just like you said, it's a hallway time. Yeah. Because you're in the middle, you're between things. But I think there's something to be said for right now being in a hallway time where you don't know what the thing is going to be after. Yeah. Mm hmm. That's very hard. It's a different experience than I'm going back to school. And I know that once I finished like this place has a place for me, or I'm going to move to this place and I've saved up this amount of money. And I'm going to get a job doing this thing. There's, there's a different experience of moving into the hallway and not knowing we legitimately have no idea what's going to be next. That's a different level of. Trust and pursuit of peace and something that I make up about it and know from you and Chris is a lot of conversation about, okay, what is the next right step? Yeah. Right. Lots of discernment. We have to, I mean, this is the thing we need to make each step so carefully because so many micro decisions need to be made so quickly that could really mess a lot of things up if they're made wrong. Right. Yeah. So, yeah. And another thing is trusting, like, even if you do that, it'll get turned somehow. That's right. Yeah. There's got to be an element of trust because if, if the onus is all on my shoulders, uh, then I'm going to die. Right. And that's, it's like the ability to like do what is ours to steward and then trust that God has the rest. Cause that's all that we can do. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's a wild. And what is also happening, and this is really, I mean, just like baffling is, um, the idea of I've had a lot of, um, my hallway spaces in general have really kind of been along the way in my life. They've all been this sort of expiration date past. And so like, I, I thought when I was 30, if I thought, I thought if I woke up 30 and still single. That I would just probably like implode or I don't know, something would spontaneously come back. This is a deadline I had for myself in my mind. And when I did, and I was like, huh, pinch myself. I'm still here. I did not implode. No, we're good. We're here. Okay. What do we do now? And kind of that passing the expiration date, I'm afraid up until the expiration date comes, we pass it. And suddenly it's like, There's no deadline anymore. And so there's actually a freedom. In that, um, and that's kind of what has been something consistent in my hallway experiences where I've spoken with other people about this in a liminal space. You, you, you feel, it can feel very disconcerting and very vulnerable to not have any mooring, to not have any anchor and feel like you're not tethered anywhere, but it can also, if you let it, you know, Can actually feel freeing, you know, we've talked about this quote before, but it's one that I kind of clung on to. Cause you and I have that in our stories too, is that we both got married. What is, you know, for our generation would be considered later in life. Maybe not so much anymore. Yeah. I was almost 37. How old were you? 32. Yeah. And so something that I kind of clung on to in different seasons of my development was this quote that everybody attributes to someone else. I think nobody knows who said it, but it's Roosevelt. Yeah. Exactly. Roosevelt said it. Absolutely. Or C. S. Lewis. One of the two. Um, is ships are safe in a harbor, but that's not what ships were built for. Love it. Yeah. And so it's the idea of like, how do we have times and safe harbors and then how do we have, you know, Yeah. And I think sometimes though, the courage to sail again feels better when you know where you're going. Absolutely. Yeah. And so I think part of what we're going to do next is you and I are going to record a couple of episodes. We're going to start out with being cared for in the hallway. That's you know, my big thing is. you know, be cared for. Yes. Which we'll talk a little bit about how that came about when we record. But we're going to talk a little bit about that as like the basis for some of the conversations we have here, because we're going to talk to people about like, how are you caring for yourself or how have you cared for yourself? And so we're going to record a couple about that. And then I think what we'll probably do is come back around hopefully before you leave. Yes. Or When you arrive in some nationally in some other Harbor of, okay, where are you now? And what's in the hallway now and how are you caring for yourself in the hallway now? Because one of the things you've talked about, which we'll get to in that episode episode is you've talked a lot about in as much as you are having to survive right now, there's been a lot of space for dreaming for you. Yeah. Which is wild. Right? Yeah. So I think what we'll do is we'll record our episodes about being cared for. Give kind of the foundation of that. And then we'll come back, check in on you and talk about what you've learned about dreaming and survival in the whole way. Oh, that's wonderful. Yeah. Because who knew those two things could like bloom together. Yes. The opposite in my book, but you know, and that is not a like mandate. Some, sometimes that is not the thing. No, no. Yeah. I think. But for you in this season, it has been, and that's really interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Is there anything else you want to add before we finish up today about you and the hallway in this podcast? I don't think so. I think that I'm excited to continue to hear other people's stories and other people's experiences in the hallway. I think. The reason why I love this is because we're, we're talking about a metaphorical ethereal thing that's liminal that we haven't been able to put in words. And yet it is so real. And yet it is so like we look at each other and go, yes, that's, that's it. You know, when you look at a friend and you go, I haven't been able to put And I hope that this is what this does is these conversations can put things that our hearts want to say out there and name them and say, that's me as well. Yeah. And I'm not alone in it. That's right. Yeah. And I have more stories now when I'm cold and feeling a little bit alone. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for letting me interview you. Thank you for interviewing me. And we are excited to come back, talk about being cared for and then talk about surviving and dreaming in the hallway. Yes. Thank you all so much. We're grateful to have spent this time with you and we will see you next time. Thank you. Bye.